Silenced in Eden

Jo Lloyd Johnson's daughter changed everything, the moment their eyes met, Jo knew that she would be responsible for introducing the world to her child. What will she do if her world is not the world she wants for her child? 

“I spent most of my life trying to earn worth. But when I became a mother, I could not look at my child as I looked at myself. She was perfect. She was worthy. Slowly, she changed my black and white world into a world of vibrant colors.  Silenced in Eden is my journey into a new world, my faith deconstruction and journey to healing.” 
-- Jo Lloyd Johnson

This Mother's day, we remember and celebrate the strength and bravery of a mother's journey many of us know intimately: escaping a cult and breaking generational abuse, a mother’s journey to set herself and her children free. 

Purchase "Silenced in Eden" here: 
https://www.amazon.com/Silenced-Eden-Jo-Lloyd-Johnson/dp/B0BV4GMV1M/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

Transcript

 Welcome everybody to butterflies and bravery. Hi, I am Jemima and I'm here with my dear lovely whisper.

And we have a guest today. An author. Yay.

What's your official author name?   It's Joanna Lloyd Johnson, and the book is Silenced in Eden. Ooh, that's pretty. Thank you. I like it. Thank you. . So I'm self-published. , spent four years writing my process of dealing with childhood trauma. , I was sexually assaulted at six um, and didn't know the details of that until Two and a half years ago.

But I started the process of figuring it all out four years ago. And as you all know, diving into really painful memories is not fun. So the way that I was able to sit with them was to write about it. I have a hard time talking things through. But for me, my journal has always been my safe space.

Yeah, so that was my way to sit in the ugly pain and be like  comforting myself in a way. During . Processing it all. as a crazy person, I decided to put it out into the world.

For me, I think it's probably similar for you guys. The reason I decided to publish was it was really hard for me to feel like I was the only one who's ever done gone through this. . And I know that I'm not . Yeah There's plenty of other victims plenty of other victims who were in a high control group while experiencing abuse as well.

But it's hard to hear their voices, especially when you have been limited with your resources all growing up. Also, if I can have one other person, I can help one person to feel not as alone as I felt, then it's worth whatever fallout and craziness that I'm gonna go through right now to put it out in the world.

Yep. Feel that, and you guys do this, I, on a regular basis yeah, I like hidden, hid my room, wrote, and then put it out and like trying to hide a little bit, have my own life. I get to choose. Platforms to walk onto, But you guys definitely felt like a safe space since you guys all know the personal hell that I walk through.

Yeah. And I also love that you guys laugh on your podcast. Right now I'm part of a group called Louder Than Silence. They help get therapy care. They get emdr therapy for people who have been sexually abused. And. So I'm in one of their groups. They have groups where they meet for 12 weeks at a time.

It's like a work group. Oh. Oh. It's really cool. It's awesome to have other people who  get your story without you having to explain how it messes up your mind. They like all know. Yeah. So I'm a part of that. And. Yeah, it's just like healing. How long have you been a part of that?

So I did one of their 12 weeks at the end of last year. Okay. And then we just started another 12 weeks. Ah. And we're   halfway through about  again, it's just nice to. Hey, I'm not the only person who's gone through this and I'm not the only person who has nightmares, and I'm not the only person who feels ashamed of my own past and, all the things that we all have experienced.

Yeah, it's just really freeing to hear someone else share their story and relate to so much of. Yeah. Which is the hope with the book That other people can read it and be like, oh, that I went through that, or I felt that way. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I'm here hoping that anybody who I feel like your listeners would relate a.

 Absolutely. And it's a pretty short book. I'm not gonna call it an easy read, just because the topic's not easy. Yeah. I've had really good feedback saying just that they felt like they could relate to the story and  sit in their own story after reading my story.

That's beautiful. Thank you. It's hard to do that sometimes. Very. Yes. It's not like a fun space to be in, but I was saying how I like how much you guys laugh and in that, Louder than Silence Group. My husband, we do it on Zoom. And my husband at one point was like, I don't understand.

You're meeting with a whole bunch of women to talk about assaults and you guys are laughing the whole time. Like, how are you guys laughing? And I'm like you wouldn't get it, but these girls get it. Yeah, I work with a non-profit, anti-trafficking organization actually. I'm sure you, you probably realized that there's a lot of similarities in the recovery from, a high , a high demand group and, tra trafficking victims.

It's something that's very close to my heart. But recently a couple of staff comedians were  like, we wanna do a fundraiser for you guys, and.  They get got up and  one of them, one of the  comments actually ventured into, making some trafficking jokes.

But they were good.  He did a good job. And afterwards  he was talking about, he was like, I was so worried about like, how do you  make a joke about something that's so serious? And I told him, I was like, . Surprisingly, it's usually the people that haven't had the experience that don't know how to laugh about it, because it's, heavy for them, which is appropriate, but if you've been through the experience you have to be able to laugh.

Otherwise you're gonna die. You cannot live with that type of, trauma, that type of pain without learning to laugh through it. And it's not that you're minimizing what happened. It's not that what happened, it's funny, but it's just finding the joy in life that is bigger than the experience, if that makes. And I think, yeah, there's a level too of you want to break that awkward, right? You like, you know how heavy it is and sometimes it's exhausting to sit in that heavy. And so it's like I need a good laugh. So yes, please make a joke so that I can laugh at this really terrible reality that I walked through.

I'm all for humor. Humor is a very good needed thing. Yeah. And. You get exhausted with the deep and the heavy , what a good laugh we get. We should laugh as hard as like anybody else, right? We deserve it. Absolutely. Or even harder. I agree. We do. We deserve to enjoy our lives.

Yes. Let the amount of laughter equal the amount of suffering. Yeah, that would be nice. That'd be a whole lot of laughter that was, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think we'll take it. Enjoy that laughter. I think we can appreciate it to a level that maybe other people wouldn't. Yeah. The joys of life.

It's like in physical therapy they're like, lotion is lotion. Laughter is lotion. Yeah. Yeah. Mo lotion is lotion. Motion move, move it., but there is like we, we know now that we hold stuff in our body and there is something like that laughter release. Yeah. Like we're clenching all of those memories and all those whatever, and there's something about laughter that just breaks it open and allows it to flow out of you.

Yes,

I'd agree. It is a great medicine.

Plus it stimulates your, what do you call that, vagal, vagal system. And how it affects your brain is needed. We need those chemicals, right? Yeah, exactly. So I'm sure like much of your story is in your book, and of course we want people to, get the book and read the, and read your full story.

But how long. How long has it been since you've been on this healing journey, since you've been, freed from the group that you were in?  My faith journey has been interesting. So I was part of a high control group that was like a fundamentalist authoritative I don't know if you guys know of the shepherding or discipleship movement within evangelical Christianity.

Pretty much they're like, this guy's the head and then this guy's next, and this guy's next, and this guy's next. And it's a very nice pyramid scheme where the head guy gets all, all the power and tells you all what to do. But you all have somebody, you're discipling somebody right above you.

And they pretty much can tell you as long as they can figure out how to make the Bible. Say what they're saying, they can tell you how to live your life. And so when I was born, my grandfather was in that movement and had a commune where he got to tell who whom and his church was supposed to live on that commune.

Okay. And it was there where one of the other families that lived there It's pretty clear that he was abused by an adult that lived there and then became a kid who was then a abusing other children. But my grandfather died when I was four and that commune fell apart. And then I went, my parents went to just regular churches for a while.

 And then at 16 I found a church that was part of the same movement. They didn't have a commune, I didn't have to go live with them. But they had an intern program where you pay them to work for them. And that's where I met my husband.   We were in that until he got kicked out of leadership because we had sex before we got.

The greatest purity culture sin that there is. Yeah. Which is, yeah, which is kinda ironic. That was the sex I wanted to have, but that was, I got in trouble for that. And then we went to regular churches for a while. And right now we are not Christians. We started deconstructing decon, converting.

Yeah. And that for me paralleled with once I started pulling out religion and Christianity, I was like, oh, I'm messed up and I know that this religion has to do with it. But I also know that this childhood trauma has to do with it. Yeah. So I've been walking away from Christianity for about five years.

Yeah, so it's been about five years. It's pretty fresh. And when you walk out of a place where every thought that you have has to go through what they say is appropriate. It takes a really long time for you to start, like thinking for yourself and then being confident in your thoughts that are like not their thoughts that have been implanted in your mind.

I don't know if you guys have. I've talked about it in, in my group where I feel like I have two voices in my head, or it's like the indoctrinated voice and then like my new voice, I'm like, Hey, I'm free to think whatever I want. And it's a little easy to feel like you're crazy because you have these two like warring.

Voices in your head. Like we don't have an angel and devil. We have like cult member and free member. Exactly. Yeah. Like the cult little guy. And then you have you're free for me. It's like a hippie girl. I was like, Hey, free love, man. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah, so it's still pretty fresh. I still have my days of feeling like I'm crazy or the shame cycles or the, you're going to hell spiral.

But I like to say that when you feed the voice that is yours, the other voice starts to get a little quiet. So I'm hoping at some point it'll be a whisper and I can just shut it up for lazy. That's my hope. Yes. So yeah, that's the book was just, The story? It is my whole life story.

It talks about childhood. And then , for me, my memories of the incident were, and a lot of them are repressed. So I had my first flashback when I was like 16, . And so I go through the how it's like to have a flashback, how you react and how. For me, I was able to repress it again and pretend my mom told me like, oh no, it wasn't a big deal.

I think the worst was what happened to so-and-so, and  I really wanted that to be true. So I believed it. Yep. And it wasn't until I, two and a half years ago, I got my paperwork from Child Protective Services and got to read what my six year old self told the officer. Oh, wow. I was like, oh shit, that was a lot worse than you guys had.

Oh. Yeah. Which brought on its own like more flashbacks and all the fun of having PTs d Yeah. But  it was also really odd because it was at the same time reassuring. It was like in my heart, I knew that there was more than what everyone had told me. So having a final Hey, you're not crazy.

You're right. There is more to it. There was this really freeing, like empowering, Hey, maybe my gut hasn't been wrong, and maybe I'm just like been told forever that I was wrong. Maybe my inner voice isn't crazy. Maybe I have some sort of intuition that I shouldn't keep ignoring forever. Yeah. Yeah. And that was one thing I was thinking about how I didn't know what the term gaslight was.

 Reading the definition, I was like, holy crap. This is my whole life. Yeah. Just being told  and I'm sure you understand Oh, this is love. This is, yeah. How a parent is supposed to treat you. Jesus said This is unconditional love, but you have to do all of these things to deserve it.

Yeah. Or he'll punish you. Yeah. And I was like, oh, gaslight. Yeah. That's all me always. Yeah. And for me, I know that it's still something I struggle with is the like minimizing my trauma being like, oh, they had it worse. Oh at least it was only these few times, or at least it was a kid who was abusing me and not a grown adult or, yeah.

And I had this wo a woman in lts say, if somebody had their legs blown off below the, And somebody else had their legs blown off above the knee. Would you really be like, oh, you're so lucky that you have your knee. Like you're both injured, right? Yeah, exactly. And that was like, oh, thank you.

Yeah, you're right. Maybe I should stop discounting my pain in my experience and like honor yeah, that was life altering. That was something that will affect me forever Now. Not just belittle it. Yeah. Because that's what everyone else has done. It's just belittled, yeah.

It's how they, it's how they silence. It's how they silence our stories. One, it's easy to feel guilty for like sharing, for me, like I look at you two and I'm sure the hell you've walked through and it's easy to be like, oh well, you know. church, it was, you know, like, and, and make it like, oh, I, I was lucky.

Yeah. But we're not, none of us were lucky. Yep. Definitely not.  So I was thinking, I don't know, would you guys be comfortable with me reading a small s. Oh fuck. Absolutely. Yeah, I was gonna ask. That's awesome. It's just a small one.

I am a little girl feeling unworthy of a holy God. Unworthiness was painted on me. I was stained with impurity. So often victims take on their abuser's fault. I did not choose to be assaulted yet. I felt tainted. All the same. A scared, lonely little girl. How could I not be afraid?   I had no control over being pinned down and stripped.

I had no power and no safety. My childhood home wore a read, a letter on the bathroom door that screamed of my entrapment. The idea of a God who can protect me and be with me would be comforting if only I was worthy of that. God. Where was that? God, when the bathroom door was locked.    Wow.

 Very Thank you. That was, that chapter was the first chapter I wrote that the book came from. Reckoning of the God that I was raised to believe in and have faith in yeah, failed me, hasn't done me any service. And only made me feel  that I was wrong.

 Yeah.

It's definitely a very powerful control mechanism.  Yeah. So growing up, my body wasn't safe. Yeah. My home wasn't safe. And the culture told us women that we were the problem. Yeah. Like we're the reason of that, it's not safe cuz of our bodies and we're the stumbling block. And your recent episode, I forget what it was called, but where you read about the woman the Young woman, flirty girl, something like that.

Flirty teens beware. Yes. Beware of her. The young, innocent child who just wants your affection. Affection being like fatherly love. That she's the problem. And I was surprised at how much I related to that, I felt growing up and I have a chapter talked, talking about changing how your body changes.

And when I come out in this cute swimsuit and I'm all excited look, I have my grownup swimsuit. I'm showing my stomach and my dad tells me to go take that off, take it back, and being crushed. What? What's wrong with me becoming a woman? But being a woman was like a shameful. She went from being able to run around and have fun to you need to sit still in a cute skirt and a long t-shirt cuz you can't show your shoulders.

And if anybody shows you attention, it's probably the wrong kind of attention. And you have to watch yourself even in front of adults that are your uncles and family friends. Like all of them are all of a sudden not. Yeah. But somehow that's your fault. Yep. That they're not safe. 

 I think that's been one of the greatest gifts of being able to share our stories and being able to start telling our stories is because that shame is. Powerfully like debilitating, and that's what they, and that's what they lived in, was that shame.

Being able to, utilize that as a control and as a silencing mechanism. But being able to just start telling your story yourself in your own power and in your own way is, has really, can really free up that feeling. Oh, I was to blame. You really start being able to see who really was to blame and when the shame starts breaking down, like there's, that's a whole, like second, it's almost like a key that unlocks a whole new level of growth and freedom.

Cause being able to walk away from that shame. Yeah, I definitely agree. Like even just there was a moment where I was done editing and I was going through my final draft of the book. And so I'm like taking the whole book in two days. And I come onto one part where I'm a little girl and it was just after the incident and I'm talking about my bedsheets and I have like heart shaped bedsheets and I just start weeping cuz I just, all of a sudden it was like I was a child.

I'm a little kid with these little heart shaped sheets, like as innocent as you can be. And it was the first time where it was like that there's no, a child can't be ashamed of him. There's no fault on her. Where I like had so much fault and felt like it to blame and it was just that moment of Hey wait, I don't, there's none of this should fall on me.

This is all someone else's, and just seeing myself as that kid was really powerful for me. Yeah,

that's really great. Definitely sound where's your book available? Cause it, yes. So it it's Silenced and Eden, it's on Amazon. Okay, perfect.

 Yeah, and I'm actually teasing the idea of a second book that would be more specific to my dating of my husband and then getting kicked out of church. And the idea of like how much we obsess how much Christianity obsesses with sex and Yeah. Even healthy sex is demonized, but then, Yeah.

Yes. O other types of yeah. It's always the woman's fault and were the tempter. And but then, so for, in that specific situation because he was a leader, it, there was all this pressure to not tell them that we were having relations. Oh. And just that kind of, that. Like that place in your mind when you're trying to be perfect and failing miserably and then don't want anyone to see your failures.

Yeah, and also because of my past sex was really confusing and with my husband it was very safe, but then I was ashamed of it even though it felt safe, which was a different level of confusing. Yeah, for sure. I know for victims, sex can be a really complicated thing that we all deserve to be able to enjoy.

For sure. But it can be hard to do that. Yeah. Yeah, and so sadly for me, when I had somebody who was showing me how to enjoy that and how to have safety and what real love. That can look like it was chained and he lo lost his job and we had like severe repercussions for in a lot of ways him healing that part of me, like being with him was very healing is, yeah.

Is my husband still? So it's still great. But it, I feel like having that situation at the beginning through back the growth that we had or I. Because then again, shame sex became this oh, I didn't do it right.  I have to now that we're married, I have to perform for him because it's expected in Christian culture that, if he goes outside of the marriage somehow it's her fault.

Which again, it's always our fault, right? Somehow if sex is being had or not being had, it's our fault. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. So def I think that , my upbringing, my trauma and then that experience with the church just threw me for this really fun path in.  Sexual life with my husband.

And we don't all love like, culturally, we don't talk about sex. Like a lot of times if you hear any books on sex, it's like, sex is terrible. Don't have it. Yeah. Put it off. Never look at a person that you find desirable. I don't know. Yeah. Or then there's very men focused.

Books on sex, right? Love and respect is like a woman just wants you to show her you love her emotionally, but a man wants physical. I'm like, I'm pretty sure both need both. So why are we dividing them up? Yeah. Yeah. The perfect, so I just feel of this constant story of who a man is and who a woman is, and it's It's really frustrating, especially once you can like, cuz that is, that's, I want, I don't wanna say it's been our gift, but it's more like it's been it's been an empowerment that we have where we've had to step outside the story, so to speak, of what's constantly being told and retold out on the outside is because we had no point of reference.

And to be able to do any type of healing, any type of understanding, we had to like step outside of that and. It seems sometimes like it's easier or like more clear to be able to look in and see what's going on and that this is a story that's being retold and not necessarily the truth.

Do you know what I mean? And it's a story that's harming so many people who don't fit the two molds that they say is normal. Exactly. I, for me, I know I have a very high sex drive and so growing up in purity culture, I was really ashamed of the fact that I had a sex drive. For me, like I was like, oh, this must be like a repercussion of trauma.

So this is because of abuse only. So this part of me is probably really bad because it's just from being abused. And so then you have this weird hatred really. I hated the fact that I had a high sex drive, which is funny cuz my husband's like, it's the best gift ever. I'm like I'm just now figuring that out.

But for a long time I thought it was. A curse. I literally thought it was a curse. And so when I hear stories from people who grew up like I did, who are queer or L G B Q I, a lot of times will relate to them just because of the fact that I also dis disliked my sexuality Yeah. And was ashamed of my sexuality and was afraid of my sexuality.

Yeah. And made to feel wrong about it. But yeah, we know men who have high sex drives and low sex drives, and we know women who have high sex drives and low sex drives and Hey, it's not always this very cookie cutter, this is how a man is. No. And I'm not the ideal Christian woman, which is probably why I ended up having to.

Like I am loud. I like to have fun. I hate doing dishes and cooking and cleaning. It's fantastic. Sound like someone I wanna be friends. Oh good. Yeah, I and it's funny now cuz like now that I'm finally away, Owning who I am and starting to then like who I am. Yeah. Cause I'm free to be that person.

Yeah, I like me, but for a long time I didn't like that I was the one who got along with the boys and didn't know how to relate to the girls. I remember in junior high, like hating junior high girls, like I hated them cuz they were loud and they only wanted to talk about boys and do their nails.

And I was like, can I go jump on the trampoline with the guys out there because that looks more fun. But then, yeah you can't wear a skirt when you're jumping up and down on a trampoline.

Yeah. But yeah, luckily my husband. I was the girl who at church would jump on in the mosh pit cuz we had like a charismatic church and at every service they'd have the jump. It wasn't really a mosh pit though. I had gone in plenty of mosh pits. But it was like a jump, we would jump up and down and I was the one who would be, pushing and jumping around and I was the crazy.

And I remember specifically the pastor's wife, like pulling me aside and telling me how like the way I behave is not gonna attract a man. And as a Christian woman, that's your only goal. Like the only job you have is to attract a man, hopefully one who's wealthy and going to work at the church.

And I was not doing my part to attract them. I was too busy being friends with them. And not attracting them the right way. Yeah, but, which is an interesting concept because it's okay, you can't be sexy but you need to attract a man by being what? Yeah. A pretty dull That is well covered.

I don't exactly know, but I wasn't it, whatever the, it was, I wasn't it.

So I didn't fit in. And yeah. And then for me, and I talk about it a lot in the book when I have five children. When I had my first daughter, it was like a light bulb moment where I was like, oh I don't want her to hate herself. Yeah. I don't want her to feel like she is less than.

I don't want her to feel like she has to find herself a husband, and that is her only goal in life. Yeah, so that definitely changed. Plus the whole, like, when you hold a perfectly newborn baby, that is the essence of purity, the idea of we're born sinful. That was out the window for me.

I couldn't look at my baby girl. Say that there was any sin or wrong , And I remember, I don't think it ended up making it in the book, but there was this moment where my mom was bouncing. I think she was like five months old, my first daughter on her knee.

And my daughter starts like getting mad, crying. You know how like you have a baby and they start whin. Because they're wanting something, but then if you don't do what they're needing, then they will start screaming at you. And then if you still don't know what to do, then they'll, they like have this angry, mad Hey.

And I remember my mom being like, oh, there's that sinful nature coming out. Oh my God. And I was like nope. She just wants you to put her down. She tried telling you the other ways and you weren't listening.

Yeah. But yeah those little moments, and it sadly took me years after to leave. But those moments were like very clear wait, something's wrong. I don't think I can keep believing this. I don't know if I can keep swallowing this is true. This doesn't feel right. it's interesting how many of those have to pile up before you finally are like, I'm gonna leave. Oh, it took a while for me. Yeah, for sure. You're untangling from your entire. It's not like you're entangling from an experience whether no matter how long that experience was, you're untangling from your entire, from the beginning of your life until you're, until you can leave.

So it's, that's what makes being born into a group like that, groups like that we have been born into and somebody that has joined. That's the difference in that experience. Of what it takes to restart our lives, essentially. In a lot of ways for us.

Yeah. It's to start, right? Because in a lot of ways we had it yes, that's right. Not restart, it's start. I'm part of a Deconversion Anonymous. And one of the people will say I put some comment about when you take out the voices of this divine God you can, if you sit in that quietness long enough, you'll start to hear your own voice.

And somebody was like, oh yeah. And it's so great when you hear your voice again. And I was like, again, I never heard it before. I had no idea there was an inner voice. It was, there was a god voice drilled into me in infancy. Yeah. Yep. Yes. It's the first time you're walking away from everything you.

Everything that you thought was truth to completely unknown and you just hope that it works out.

I have a few poems in the book and I'm not sure if this one made it in the book, but I have a poem about leaving religion. When I was, when I wrote this book, I hadn't yet deconverted, I was deconstructing, I was walking away from major aspects, but I don't know if I wasn't really ready to be like out of the tribe yet.

And I wrote a poem about decon converting, and I talked about how like you walk the path that your mom or your father sets before you. And you take every step on their stone path. And then when I took my first step off, then it was like the sand meeting my feet and I was on a beautiful shore and Hey, I like this place a lot more.

This is my place. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, it's scary to find yourself and leave everything that you know. Yep. For sure. But it's nice when you see other people and you're like, oh, you've done it too, and survived. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. We, we always say that it's really nice to be able to meet and talk with people that you don't have to translate yourself for.

Yes. Yeah. But yeah, and it's, it is crazy. You were talking about how people who have been trafficked, how much. Things overlap. And today I was talking to a soldier and he was talking about how to be deployable, you have to pretend like you have no mental whatever. He was in something where they were like, oh, you're having a form of your mental health, whatever.

And somebody went to like say, do you ever have suicidal thoughts? And the guy was like, Nope. You can't say you do. You like, have this, you have to front, you have to pretend like you're. And he is talking about that. I'm like, I totally know what you're talking about. Yeah. That was my whole life. I had to pretend like I was okay.

I can't crack. We don't believe in mental illness. Jesus healed you and if he didn't heal you, you need more faith. And yeah, it was just crazy. And he was talking about, you know what it's like to be a military man. I'm like, I can relate to you actually.

Yeah, absolutely. Someone who actually was born into the cult. We were as a third generation wrote a book that that got pretty big just recently. It's called Uncultured. Oh. And she, I've just heard about that. Okay. Yeah. So sh and she left the cult and then join the Army. And so there, she actually makes a lot of comparisons between the two in, in, in the book and the, and what.

What that can look like and what that can feel like to, be, I feel like that would be traumatizing to come from one cult to another cult. Like I, yes, I think so. That's so it's, yeah she's been brave to, to put her voice out there. Yes. That's not easy. Absolutely. Anybody who's out here, you guys are brave.

She's great. And yet you and you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to read that book. Yeah, the, it isn't, there was a lot of military type words used, you're, soldier in God's army. I remember in high school, There was like a no soldier left behind, but it was like no child left behind, or no student, I forget specifically, but it was literally they had like pictures of soldiers carrying other soldiers and the whole concept was like, save your schoolmates.

So they were telling a bunch of teenage kids that the souls of their fellow classmates were on them, that they had to convert them or their friends. Going to go to hell. And don't leave any kid behind because you're abandoning them for evil. Yeah, and it was during, like that season I had a friend, it was a classmate but he committed suicide and I had so much guilt cuz he was in my class.

He was in, he was a classmate. I saw him every single day and my pastor's telling me that it's my job to have. Student left behind. I remember just, and I, that is one of the chapters of the book, just being a kid, being like he is now in hell and it's my could I have done something to stop him?

What was I supposed to be? The one who did I not share that one day at third period? And that would've saved his life. The guilt of. 18 year old kid who thought for sure that Forever torment was now on this person and somehow she should have saved them. Yeah. Yeah. Been your fault. Yeah. It's all your fault.

You saw him once a day for 60 minutes. You should have saved his life. And again, we had no concept of mental health, so it wasn't like, Yeah, he was depressed and whatever. Like it wasn't depression that killed him. It was evil with the devil. Yeah. Yep.

Yes. Very. All very relatable. Very familiar. Yeah. Yeah.  The cult that we were born in they wrote their own music cuz it was the only music you were allowed, supposed to do. And there's so many songs about the Lord's army. Like I wear the Lord's army.

Just like constant, that, like you said, it's a, it's, they use a lot of very similar words and verbiage. Yeah. Military, frameworks, I guess you could even say.  It's amazing. I Music is so powerful. Yes. And it's hard when they like take that something powerful like that and then weaponize it to control you or, and it those things like they just repeat in your head they stick so well, and I guess it's genius on their part.

Have the, that ear warm, the thing that's gonna gnaw at you. Yeah, true. But for me as a charismatic Christian, like I will be flipping through the radio and those like trigger ones will just throw up sometimes, like just come up on my station. I'm like, oh God, no. Like mute turn. And then yeah it's like I was at the beach on.

And somebody biked up with their little portable radio or whatever and they were, had their playlist and it was all Christian and luckily there's enough. It's been five years. Like they're always reinventing songs. Luckily, most of them I didn't know, but there was a few that came on that I was like, oh yeah, I know this song.

I remember this.

And it's funny too, because there's times for me that it can bring up good memories. And I'll have moments where it'll be like, oh, I remember this person that I care about, or whatever. Yeah. And the song can be like comforting cause it's like part of your childhood. And then the same song a week from then can be like, I wanna pick up the device and throw it.

Don't, that song's terrible. Yeah.  . It's amazing how relatable,  the stories, even though it's not exactly the same. It's the, it's a similar journey. Absolutely. Yeah. It's crazy how common high control groups, like they use the same plans of attack.

Yeah. Shame how, yes. Same tactics, same mentality. Yeah. That's why I feel like our best defense is just to keep talking about it. Yeah.  I think there's power in light coming together and having voices that are ringing out together versus one little voice over here and one over there. Like the more people that come together and share, like they can't ignore a thousand voices.

They might ignore by one. They might ignore the one little published book and some whatever, but enough people read it, enough people relate to it, like it's a lot harder to ignore. When you've got a bunch of people. Absolutely. 

And we find strengths in each other. And jokes. Yes. Strength and jokes.

The power of laughter. Absolutely. Yes. One of my favorite powers. It's a good power to have for sure. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Definitely gonna get that book excited to read it. And silence in Eden, right? Silence in Eden. Yes. All right. Very good. We'll put we'll put a link to the book as well in our, in the podcast description.

So anyone listening can grab it from there, or we'll put it on our website about butterflies and bravery.com as well. Thank you guys so much. No, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and speaking with us. It was great hearing your story and It's just always so encouraging to meet other people that have gone through, the, these dark, the dark knight of the soul that we have had to, and, are standing strong in their power and are living these empowered lives.

It just lifts. It just lifts you up. It, we're doing it like we're doing it, you guys are doing it. That's how it feels, so thank you so much for coming and sharing your story, which, yeah. It sounds powerful and And you're coming from such an empowered space and it's very encouraging, so thank you.

Thank you. Yeah. When I saw you guys your podcast, I was like, oh my gosh, there's more out there. There's more people like me who are talking about this specific thing of being harmed inside of religion. Yes. Sexually abused. Yeah. And that's why we, that's why we wanna call our podcast Butterflies and Bravery, because that, that really is the experience that you have.

You have to you're a oh child warrior that has to go through so much. And yet, and because of that, you have that sort of, that fragile side of you as well, the butterflies. But, but we get through. With both of them. We can carry both of those things in our, in inside ourselves.

And find healing. So thank you so much. And as we say in closing stay brave and remember that every butterfly was once a caterpillar.