Butterflies and Bravery

Backy on Tracky

February 06, 2023 Season 2023 Episode 3
Butterflies and Bravery
Backy on Tracky
Show Notes Transcript

Hello, February!
With jokes and laughs and cries we weave our way through a talk about human trafficking, survivor resources, exciting things going on in the ex-born in a cult arena, “Heaven’s girl”, and why it's an accomplishment to stick around for the brighter tomorrows we never thought would come.
Plus, a surprise visit from a new pet!

Links to the "Heaven's Girl" publications here:
https://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Heaven%27s_Girl

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   Welcome to Butterflies and Bravery . I'm Jemima and I'm here with my co-host Whisper. Hello. 
And this will be our. Third podcast of the year.   January was a little a little lacky, but we're back on the Tracky
Oh my God. We're still, are we
That just pours out naturally.  from my pores.  backing on the tracky. Alright. It just happens. so this will be our third Po Fur third podcast, . This will be our third podcast. Our first, no. Yes. Our first podcast of February . I just have to sit in a radio voice because then I'll be less challenged with my words.
really? Does that help? Apparently
because that came out very smoothly. I was thinking  about this the other day, yesterday and today actually.  And I know that I'm not the only one who feels like this. I know that a lot of ex, born and cult kids,  have this feeling like where you feel like you lost so much of your life, right?
Like you lost so much of your time. Yeah. That it's almost not necessarily pressure to do something, but there's like all the, always this kind of , like this overhanging of  what have I missed?  What did I not take advantage of?
I don't know. There, it obviously it's, there's some shame , wrapped up in there.  My daughter  her company closed down that where she was working, they're just shutting the ,  all the stores down in the area  where we are.  I was helping her apply for unemployment.
 Because of everything that happened with Covid anyways, we couldn't file online. We had to call in  in person and talk to somebody and get them to reopen the case  So this woman, she is wonderful soul patient  I can't imagine what she must have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.
 She was being very patient and  asking us all the questions. And one of the things she asked was  if Luca was a veteran. And  at first I was like, huh?  When she first asked that, my first reaction was like, what?
She's a fucking kid. And then I realized,  wait a second. She absolutely could be a veteran. . And that's fucked with my not fucked with my head, but   it just  hit me she could have gone and signed up, at 18, which is  legal age here in the States and whatever it is,  six months basic training, and they can send you off and it's a three year stint, right?
, whatever it is. If you wanna get out right away and not renew your contract. And I was like, yeah, but she's a thousand percent within that age range now where she could be a veteran
I was just like,
    What  what
from? There's two's cats. McKayla's cats. Yeah. There's two. They're exactly the same. They're two little black, pitch black. Oh my god, brother. There's two, two little brothers. All black cats. Like behind a dumpster or something. Just recently. No.  in Salem. And brought them with her when she moved over.
Wait, she found two black cats in Salem. Please tell me. Yes. She named them like the most amazing fucking like . You're not gonna believe one child . No. Far more event than, that'll even better tell what's their name. Yes. One of them's name is Satan. That's fucking amazing. Ok. But ooh, that's too bad.
So let's add a mule to the end. Yeah. . Nathaniel. So we call Sadie Perfect. And then the other one's name is, we call him Azi. Okay. His name is, oh my God, I can't remember it. It, it's the god of luster or something insane. Wait, are we supposed to know all this because of all this stupid fucking, it's as it  as ass, I believe is, I'm gonna check ass like as in Mozart, asthma, Davis , just like that.
But with an As. Sorry. Yes. Azmohdeus is a prince of demons and. Nice. Nice. He's the king of demons and .  Represents lust.   do you remember that period of my life where I was  taking in all those homeless kids,   I'd taken in five kids plus my own kids, and with these kids came animals at one point.  We had all kinds of animals and , it was  at the height of supernatural,  and the kids were  watching that show and everyone was  really obsessed. And so  we started naming  all the animals  Supernatural names like Sam and Dean  and J and Crowley and
Charlie and yeah, of course Castiel. . So yeah, those names are Epic enough, right? For two Black Cats found in Salem. Absolutely fucking epic. Two black cats found in Salem, say, and ass . That's amazing. It's actually funny that. That we get to name our animals  these ridiculous names because we can't name people
Your name will be, we're like, we have to be surrounded by difficult names
now that we're missing all of our, ohnes and whatnot.
Yeah. And, oh, I hate that
name's probably cuz you hated Uncle, uncle Japeth . No, actually he wasn't that bad. He was a nice person. He was one of the nicer people. He was quote, , he literally was walking around on a leash.  The only thing  that he was missing was the caller and Shane, because I'm pretty sure he would ask his wife if he had to take a shit before he could that's his person on I apologized.
Anyone  knows and loves Uncle Chad.  He had kindness. He really did. He had kindness. But
That's who people were in the cult, right? Either  they just didn't have the backbone. , or they were  so madly in love with whoever they were with  there was like a, I don't wanna say a weakness, but there was a, Sort of , a bottom, like a sort of a submissive   personality.
That was a bottom bitch. Yes. Bottom bitch. I'm the bottom bitch. . And they obviously, they tended to be the nice people. Yes. They pointed to be the somewhat kind ones,  They would go along with what they were told to do, but they wouldn't come after you.
But then when you had the Doms  out there running around with their fucking like whips and chains. Yeah.  I'm making BDSM sound really bad because it was so much worse than bdsm. Great. Compared , that's fun when you're going into it willingly. , that's a whole different situation.
Right's a whole, yeah, absolutely. That's when you, when it's actually, yeah, we, yeah. That's a whole nother story  for  super happy to have that conversation one of these days with Yes, we should  I think it's something, should be explored.  We threatened at one point, didn't we? We threatened, yes. And that was about it. And we told a couple stories, but not, oh yeah. We got, we barely touched the surface.  come down to it. 
 Completely forgot what we were talking about before, like the black cat  black cat completely. Like I know he just, everything.  It was about  the and the veteran  I was saying  sometimes , it feels a little bit oppressive.
, our life's timeline. Cause we lost so much, especially, like you and I were both stuck in the cult for so long. We were mid to late twenties when we were finally able to escape. Yes. Or get out or get kicked out, or whichever way we exited . My freedom. We  , we're heading into our half a century.
Yes.  I'm quite there . And , it's easy to feel like shit.  I'm really old. And , what is that, that means someone put up   every time I see how old I am, I get shocked.
That is sometimes  I'm like, wait, I'm what? I'm not old. Like I don't feel it. . But then other times I sit there and I think I'm. . All the things that we didn't really get to do, especially our situation in particular, by the time we left,  we were parents, there was no clubbing, there was no crazy, there, there wasn't that sort of atmosphere in our lives for a while.
 And it's easy to feel a little bit like,  I've lost so much time. But when I was talking with Luca about,  that how dare they ask her if she could possibly be a veteran? , she's still my baby. What? But then I was like, wait a second.  Because she was  about a year and a bit when we finally landed here in the states,
And so essentially how old she's  is how long I've been free. So really only about 21, 22. Years that I've been free. Which is crazy cuz you know at 50   unless something goes really sideways,  generally  expectation is you've got another 20 years of fulfilling and full life, yeah. And I was thinking about that. , I wasn't in time warp basically, cuz I was like, wait a second.  I still have, at least 20 years. Good years , and that's as long as I've.  been out,  it just  dawn on me.  I still got so much more ahead of me. It's easy to feel like we don't . Yeah. Cause  we are gonna die. Yes. That's literal,  there's a song.
. What are you gonna do when you get to be 25? Do you think that you'll be happy or if you'll even be alive? Yep. And we did not think we were gonna be alive.  Jesus was coming back. Yes. Oh my God. Okay. You probably can't put this on, you probably can't put this on the podcast,
but I was, so was this joke on.
And most I actually just died laughing. Why do orgs take so long in heaven?  Dunno. Because Jesus keeps pretending he's coming and he
Why can't we put it on the podcast? ? Oh my God. So
Oh,
Why do orgies take so long? In heaven? Yes, because Jesus keeps coming back. He's coming. Sorry. Now coming back when he keeps, he's coming. Jesus. Pretending that coming. Oh my. Yes.  That's funny.  I  remember being very convinced as a small child that I was not going to even live to be a teenager.
 We were always going to die, I  remember not thinking I was gonna get very far cuz I was like 13 when the fucking heavens girl shit started coming out.
  And that was some terrifying. That was terrifying. Yeah. That's a whole like podcast in itself. We should talk about that. We were supposed to be God's superheroes. And it's so weird too, like when I think back about that time, because  we would wait,  with Bit Press  for the next episode to come out because it,  was  the one tiny little piece of any type of interesting, it had a storyline. It was  literally one of the only things that we had to read that had a storyline.  When I think about how fucked that was,  we are desperate to get this story and find out what the next thing was gonna be, which was.
She was gonna be raped, she was gonna be tortured, you know, gang bang. Yeah. Like that. That's what we . And it actually, I was looking back at some of them and was mortified. Yeah. That 12 year olds were reading that because  talking about her being gang banged you're gonna have to get gang banged by all of these soldiers.
Yep. Because it's Jesus. And I'm sitting there thinking, what if my 12 year old child were reading something like that? Mom, what's gang banging? Obviously we already knew. Yeah, of course. Of course. The fact that we knew what orgs and gang bangs and all of that were when we were like 12 . Yeah. Oh yeah.
No, we're not. No. The family never had any sex at all. No. No. Our perception,  and our perspective of that was so twisted because we were basically parentified Adultified at 12 years old. 11, 12 years old.  There's not a time that I can look back on and think  and see my innocence.
Do you know what I mean? There's not a time that I can look back on and say . That's when there was levity, there was times I didn't have to worry about things. There was times I didn't know the horror  of the world.  And of course,  being parents now, watching our kids get to those ages where we remember some of the shit that we were dealing with.
 It's pretty, yeah. It's pretty horrifying. I remember even, do you remember, , I think this stuck out to me because I love to draw and   what was going on when they were trying to draw, quote unquote Heaven's girl and the artists from the cult weren't getting what Berg had in mind.  I remember .  One of the images that they tried to use for Heaven's Girl.
And Burke was like, no,  she has too many muscles. She's too big. So she can be Heaven's girl's, guardian. Angel named Flame. Do you remember Flame? Flame? Guardian Angel, yeah.  He was having people like Mene and some of the other very young girls pose in all these positions when they were like 11 and 12 opposing for Heaven's Girl, because that was her age.
That was her body's age.  He was such a pedophile man. , yeah. Fuck, like 12 to 14. That was his. . That was his ideal fucking, that was his ideal woman. , the world's worst and so
   I'm grateful that my kids live  in a time and place.  Where, , they don't have to put up with that kind of bullshit where, Expecting to die at any moment is just,  not part of the makeup of their life growing up.
  I personally, I think that
 The difference   is because  how horrifically suppressed our trauma was at that age, because I've had conversations with people before where it's I, like I,  didn't have that kind of anxiety. I didn't have that
and I'm like, eh,  when your trauma is so terrible that you actually have to pack it away, , it's that much more unhealthy, right? I love my children to death and I'm so grateful when they talk to me about the things that they worry about and the things that,  they have anxiety about, the things that are on their hearts, their minds , and  I'm so grateful that these are the kind of things, and I never ever say it or portray it in that way.
Because I don't feel that way. I don't feel like, oh, this is so little . This is so minor compared to what I had to deal with. I don't feel it at all. I'm just eternally grateful that  the things that cause them anxiety, the things that cause them concern and worry is like just so far away from the things that we were, having to worry about.
I mean, one of my kids' fears is .  Their siblings are, moving on faster than they are, or  in their mind being more quote unquote successful than they are.   That's what keeps them awake at night. . Whereas for us, what was keeping us awake at night was , to make sure that we weren't  picked up and raped, in the middle of the night.
like that was literally what we were worried about. And
, that's some fucking deep suppression that, you have to go into to, to live with that.
 .   I think we talked about this before that.  The fact that it didn't have , an effect on you, or you say it didn't have an effect on you, that was the effect , that is the effect that it had on you. Yep. Is that you shut down enough for it not to have an effect.
So yes, it did have an effect on you. It caused you to shut down. That is an effect. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's how, to me, that was like a huge revelation. Yeah. Oh my god. Yes. Because I was always like, oh yeah, that doesn't bother me. Oh yeah. No, that doesn't bother me. No.
That doesn't bother me . And then I was like, the fact that it doesn't bother me, that's the bother in itself. Yeah. And that's where I need to start working on . Is some of those things that I think don't bother me.  And  it's not secluded to just, kids born in cults.
No.  I working with survivors of human trafficking as is conventionally or commercially, considered human trafficking, even  women that, or men that are  getting pimped on the street will sit there and say, I'm not a victim of human trafficking.
right. Because   it's so hard  it takes so much vulnerability to go to that place where you can say, yeah. I didn't deserve  what happened to me. And I don't deserve the way that I'm being treated. There's this perception that is a weak stance.
Or that it somehow makes you less than or not. Cuz there's that hole like, let's be tough , right? If you're tough, that means that you're more healthy, right? Like you have more emotional health. If you are tough no. That's absolutely   not the truth. It just takes you that much longer to get to the place of healing and get to the place of understanding and get to the place of acceptance.
Of loving yourself. Yes. Of seeing, your yourself , in your humanity. Yeah. Instead of no, I must be thus and I must be so, yep. So Sure. big time. That's a big, huge thing. I think , that really is, that's a big one. Something that a lot of people don't consider even possibly to be, oh, that's not mental health, that's just being tough.  . No, that's mental health. . Yeah. And it's very much affects, affects your mental health too.  Yeah. , I don't like to get into debates on the internet because  it's so pointless.
Yeah. But at the same. , sometimes I so want to , and one of the ones that  some of the conversations that I want to get into. So bad  are the ones where people start going like what's, the whole everybody just needs to have a participation trophy these days.  Back in the day,  we put up with this and you know, my mother or my grandmother put up with this and put up with that
And I feel like, are you not hearing yourself put up with. They put up with it. Like, why are you saying that's okay, that's normal. Yes, let's just all accept that we should just put up with abuse and put up with  mistreatment and put up with horribleness.
 Why is it so wrong to say I want a better world for my kids. I want vulnerability, I want kindness, I want compassion, I want empathy. That's the world I wanna live in. , how is that? How is that quite the bad thing? 
 The whole, pull yourself up from your bootstraps a thing. Yeah. The cult of the  individual I would call it.  I love this quote I read the other day that said community is the oldest form of healing. . And that's so true, right?
Yeah. And that whole every man for himself is one of the not very healthy places to be in. Yeah. Very much it's why you feel you have to.  arm yourself.  Many guns. . Yeah. . Because you, like you, if you can't even fucking trust your neighbor. Huh? Like how is that The life like you.
How's that the place you wanna be in? Anyway, I don't wanna get into Nah. American laugh. Me .  Let's  talk about what's coming up this for this month. Yeah. One of the things that I , I don't know if we necessarily have a guest for this yet, , but  February , here in the United States is black history month.
Which I mean, black history, it's every day. It shouldn't just be a month,   but like Berg was so racist. Oh, yeah. 
And  it's such a, , Judeo-Christian, .  Stance and  it's interesting to me how, some of us not just us in the, ex external God, ex evangelical Christians or some other type of like super pseudo Christian cult place being raised in,  it's interesting  to see some of the racism that still lives  in our community and  in the communities of the people that were around.
, it'd be interesting to have a conversation about that. Because  I can tell you  right away, what  Burke's issue was  with the Jews. I do know that. But I don't know why he was so racist and why he made the, the cult and two racists.
I mean we obviously, of course we had amazing and wonderful,  black people in the cult. But by and large , , there were very few, very, there were very few, yeah.  That's a great conversation to have just because it's this month it's been something I've been thinking about I have someone  an amazing woman who I did a couple of projects within the human trafficking arena.
. And she's a black woman, and  she's a warrior for her community, and she was a victim of human trafficking and she started a nonprofit and everything like that. We've been talking about having an interview with her  to talk about the issues of race and human trafficking, because it's a big issue.
It's a big problem. . But it's just been on my mind a little bit of,  that correlation  of who's the most vulnerable .  that's who gets stomped on. But besides that,   let's talk about what else  we have on the horizon, we have an interview with Michelle. And  I wanted to talk about there's this organization here in the United States called Polaris, they run the national human trafficking. Helpline and  they have since 2000. A lot of the statistics that we get in this country on human trafficking comes from them and comes from,  the information they take from their calls.
They just concluded as far as we know, the largest survey study ever done on survivors.  In the United States. It was a year long study and it was nearly 500 participants and all of them were survivors of human trafficking.  The whole point  of the report was,  about, what are your needs, what were your biggest challenges coming out and all that kind of stuff.
And I've always found it so interesting  because , even if people want to debate , whether or not we were trafficked and  whether children that were born into cults were trafficked, which they were, by  both   the US and the  United Nation's definition of what human trafficking is, we were trafficked
Because it doesn't have to do with location,   you can  never leave your house and be trafficked like that. It's about coercion and exploitation. It has nothing to do with actual traveling.  Which is something that people  get sometimes, mixed up on.
But  even if you didn't wanna say , we were victims of human trafficking.  There's a parallel  journey that we have  experienced that is very similar to what survivors of human trafficking deal with, which is.  coming out into the world for the first time and not knowing how to do anything.
A lot of times their pimp or their parent or whoever might be, whoever's exploiting them,  has kept their identity, has taken credit out in their name, has kept their documents.  All that kind of stuff that is very common in the human trafficking world, which happened to us as well.
Keeping us stuck, keeping us, from leaving. And when we finally do escape, having to start from scratch.  whether it's no education or  no job history.  all of those things it's so similar to what we deal with that , it was a fascinating report and , that is , one of the things that we want  to talk about in our podcast.
  We'll do a whole episode on human trafficking and the parallels Yes. Between cult children and coercion, whether or not you were in a cult,  and  what the study showed the needs were and what the overwhelming statistics showed, which is quite interesting, I think.
So that's gonna be a really interesting podcast that we've got coming up. . Yeah. I think  that's gonna be a good one because a lot of those parallels , I don't think have been drawn enough and  it's something that needs to be acknowledged a little bit more, I think.
 And it's important to , ask the questions is there something that , that can be done about it? I'm sure you saw  in one of our online communities we found the news from Australia just added our cult to their  redress program.
Yep. Which means Australian , Australia's fucking they're standing up . Yeah. Australia's showing up for for. . The kids . Who had no one. Yeah. Cuz their payout are huge too. Yeah. Like $50,000 or something like that. Not 20 bucks. No.
Up to 150,000. Yeah.  That's life changing money. Yeah. At least for me, . Yeah. You can start business, you could buy a house. Oh gosh. Type of stuff you can do with that. That makes a difference between being on the streets or  being able to supply for your family and support yourself. It's huge.
It is. And, . It's both encouraging and disheartening too that  I don't know if the United States will ever get there, but it is really encouraging that on the general international stage. Yeah. And in and in other westernized, really, other important countries they are acknowledging it.
Yeah. Even if this country never gets around to it . I'm hoping we can get a little bit more information on that too, and just what that is.
  There's a lot of work  that's happening behind the scenes with people that we're working with, trying to , get new legislation, get new, just Yes.
Starting to make a face for SGAs. , one of the people that we work with Lisa  she's been on our podcast before, amazing Woman, and she is, Wow, that woman is Spitfire . Yeah. I'm like, please, can I just have just gimme one 10th of your  energy and then I'll probably be able to start two companies
 It's wonderful and it's one of her passions. But yeah. Just  being in those conversations and continuing forward and being able to start seeing the things that are happening in the world around us and people,  are fucking finally starting to acknowledge how horribly we were all failed on every level and not just failed by our parents and not just failed by the countries that we were in but failed by them now.
Yeah. That we have no recourse.  I'm not saying  they shouldn't have this, but there is,  hundreds of organizations and programs for ex-convicts that are coming out of jail and  coming out of prison. , they can walk out and  I'm not saying it's easy, but there is at least something, right?
Like today we can't as like, sorry. I was born in the cult. I was literally a prisoner of war . And there's nothing I can just walk up and say I need help with, there's a program that I can apply for. Even here in the States, there's , the victim's aid fund and stuff, but it's only a violent crime.
Yeah. , you have to prove  it was a violent crime and you're like, eh, and on American soil, so yeah.
   I don't know how fast  like this stuff will start happening, but it's happening. It is happening. We're chipping away . Yes. Chipping away out that granite. Chipping away at that granite, eating that elephant. One bite at a time. Yeah.  The other thing that we're super excited about that's gonna be happening in the next couple months is Jem and I have been working with Dr.
Janja Lalich's  amazing organization, and , her and her team are starting to do incredible things for  born and cult kids. And , we're gonna be involved in some of the things that are happening there. So we'll have more details once  things are more lined up, but we're, we are extremely honored and extremely excited.
Yes. , I was talking like Sarah Pits the other day and she like, started crying because, , she's known me for 15 years. , and I was talking about, just being in a place where I am right now starting a podcast and now working with Dr.
Daniel Laich and working with the human trafficking organization that I went I'm, I don't think I could have ever pictured being in a place where I am in today where  I can, I wake up every day and say, I can do something with the pain , with the pain that was dealt to me  I'm turning,  pain into purpose.
I know it sounds a little cliche, but it is. It is. When you are able to do that, when you have  had something as traumatic and as deep as this, the stuff that, the people out in our communities have been through. Yeah. Survivors, man. Fuck. I'm survivors are incredible. I hope anybody listening , I hope every single one of you  whether, or however you see your history, however you see your past, however you see what you've gone through.
Don't ever minimize  how incredible it is where you are today.  It's so easy for us to feel behind, so easy for us to, put that shame. We have these ridiculous expectations of ourselves because we were raised that way. That's in our programming. But when you go and start talking to people and you go and start looking around and you go and start reading some things,  you'll start to see the incredible resilience that survivors have. And please, if there's one thing you can do for yourself, please give yourself credit for that.
Give your self credit for,  waking up every single morning, no matter how fucked up it feels,  you're sticking around. And that is humongous in so many ways.
Yeah. Yeah. and, and I'm only saying this because , I'm starting to, look back on some of the conversations that I was having  with myself,  when I would have those days where I couldn't get out of bed when I wasn't sure if I was gonna live until the next day type of place,  I didn't wanna hear that  cuz Yeah.
My therapist would say whisper you're still here. That's a huge accomplishment. And I  I could never acknowledge that for myself. I was like, how is that a huge accomplishment? I opened my eyes, like that's what I did. , how is this an accomplishment?
  No matter how you feel in that moment, what you're doing is you're laying a foundation for tomorrow.  because if you are here today, you're laying a hard foundation for tomorrow. And by taking yourself to tomorrow, , you give yourself a chance to get to the day after.
Right? And every single time you do that, every single day, you're giving yourself a chance. You're giving yourself a chance for what is going to come. And ,
I spend so many years feeling like I was just a mess. , I was just doing the just barely keeping alive and sane, trying to , take care of my kids, but now I feel like I'm in these places where I can give. , , I can do stuff.
So in this  study that we were talking about,  with survivors, one of the things that  over and over they said they needed help in is financial.  How do you build your credit back up  how do you get out of debt?
How do you  jump the shark, so to speak out of poverty? And I was telling my boss,  I've been there cuz my ex  took so much debt out in my name that I ended up having to declare bankruptcy.  , this was years ago, but  I can tell you so much  about credit and about what affects your credit , and what affects your debt and ,  that's from being in the place where I lived, that I lived that torment. And in those moments, in those days when I just wound his back, it was so bad. I was saying, my kids, the neighbors said that they had something to eat for that day. And it didn't happen often. But  I've been at that place and I could have never even imagined in that moment.
 That I would get to a place in my life where now I can turn around. And so yeah I'm working on,  creating  a class and a program for survivors , on debt and financial literacy and . I just what? But again, , I can look back and say  that's what the accomplishment was.
Maybe  it didn't feel like anything, but I was showing up staying alive,  for that day so that I had a tomorrow. And every single time that happens,  it gives you a chance. We hear it so much where there's life, there's hope.
 We hear it so much, it doesn't mean very much, but it. . It really does. Yeah. It actually means so much.  Thank you everyone for joining us. There's lots more to come we're hanging in there. And  tomorrow's another day. . We appreciate every single one of you. , we're grateful that anyone  listen to us. It means a lot. And we always welcome , any kind of conversations that, you guys wanna have, write us, send us questions or opinions anything that you wanna talk about.
Anyone that. Would like to come on the show and talk to us. We would love that as well. You're always welcome. I don't wanna say the door's always open. I'm say the microphone's always on . There you go. The microphone's always on over here, butterflies and bravery. So thank you for listening and we are honored to be a part of your life, even in a small way.
 We'll close like we always do. Stay brave and remember that every butterfly was once a caterpillar.